Ingabo z’u Rwanda ntizicuza urugamba zarwanye muri Kongo – Jenerali Nyamvumba

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Izuba Rirashe

Kuya 4 Nyakanga 2014 saa 08:30
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Ingabo z’u Rwanda zanyuze mu bihe bikomeye mu myaka 20 ishize, imyaka yakurikiye guhagarika Jenoside yakorewe Abatutsi ndetse no gusoza intambara yo kwibohora yari imaze imyaka 4 itangijwe n’ingabo zari iza RPA (Rwanda Patriotic Army).
Nubwo Intambara yari irangiye ndetse na Jenoside ihagaritswe, hahise hatangira intambara muri Kongo mu mwaka 1995, urugamba rwo guhangana n’Abacengezi ndetse n’abari mu ngabo za Leta ya mbere ya 1994 bakomeje kubuza umutekano igice kinini cy’Amajyaruguru (...)

Ingabo z’u Rwanda zanyuze mu bihe bikomeye mu myaka 20 ishize, imyaka yakurikiye guhagarika Jenoside yakorewe Abatutsi ndetse no gusoza intambara yo kwibohora yari imaze imyaka 4 itangijwe n’ingabo zari iza RPA (Rwanda Patriotic Army).

Nubwo Intambara yari irangiye ndetse na Jenoside ihagaritswe, hahise hatangira intambara muri Kongo mu mwaka 1995, urugamba rwo guhangana n’Abacengezi ndetse n’abari mu ngabo za Leta ya mbere ya 1994 bakomeje kubuza umutekano igice kinini cy’Amajyaruguru y’Igihugu.

Mu gushaka gusangiza abasomyi bacu byinshi ku mateka y’urugamba rwo kwibohora, intambara zakurikiyeho, uko ingabo za RDF zakomeje kwiyubaka ndetse n’uko umutekano urinzwe muri iki gihe, Umunyamakuru wacu Fred Muvunyi, yagiranye ikiganiro kirambuye n’Umugaba Mukuru w’Ingabo z’u Rwanda, Jenerali Patrick Nyamvumba.

Muri iki kiganiro Gen. Patrick Nyamvumba yatangiye avuga uko imyaka 20 ishize yari inzira yo kwibohora kandi iyi nzira izakomeza…

Kwibohora uko bikwiye kumvikana, si ikintu gifite ‘time frame’, habanje igice cya mbere cy’intambara y’amasasu cyarangiye mu 1994 ariko irangira u Rwanda rugize Jenoside, u Rwanda rutakaje miliyoni irenga y’abanyarwanda ari nacyo gikomeye muri uru rugendo rwo kwibohora ugereranyije n’ahandi; gikomeye kuko muri uku kwibohora nyine, ugiye kubireba phase [igihe] y’intambara yararangiye ariko hasigaye kugira u Rwanda rw’Abanyarwanda, abantu bose bibonamo.

Kubaka rero kugera aho tuvuga ngo abantu baribohoye…kuko kwibohora byari bigamije kugera ku mibereho myiza y’Abanyarwanda bari mu Rwanda rufite amahoro, rutekanye; ni inzira ikiri ndende ariko umuntu ntiyabura kuvuga ngo muri iyi myaka 20 ishize biraboneka ko hari byinshi bimaze gukorwa ariko nkanjye ushinzwe ingabo nakwibanda ku kibazo cy’umutekano kuko ariwo musingi, tukareba ko igihugu n’abagituye bafite umutekano dufatanyije n’izindi nzego z’umutekano n’abasivili, sinavuga ko twabigezeho, ariko igihugu gifite umutekano usesuye ariko bisaba guhozaho.

Umunyamakuru: Nyuma y’imyaka 20, intambara y’amasasu yarahagaze ariko turabona abasirikare ku muhanda ku manywa y’ihangu, ntabwo ariko byari bimeze mbere y’umwaka 2010, ese aho akazi karoroshye?

Huuummm…kukoroshya byo byaba ari ukukoroshya ariko akazi k’umutekano…bisaba ubwitange, bisaba ndetse no gutanga ubuzima bw’umuntu cyakora nsubije icyo ubajije, kuva mu 2010 hari ibintu byabaye mu Rwanda tutari dusanzwe tumenyereye, ibintu byo gutera amagerenade, ni ibikorwa by’iterabwoba bigamije gutera ubwoba abaturage ariko ntibibasiga biranabakomeretsa.

Kuva ibyo bikorwa byatangira hamaze gupfa abaturage basaga 30 hakomereka abantu benshi harimo abana b’impinja.

Ibyo by’abasirikare wavugaga ni kimwe mu ngamba zo kubikumira, hari na byinshi bimaze gukumirwa bitabaye.

Bikorwa n’izo groups [udutsiko] zitandukanye harimo FDLR na RNC, nicyo gituma twari twabihagurukiye, kandi mu kubihagurukira tubona byaratanze umusaruro kandi byagabanutse mu buryo bufatika.

Umunyamakuru: Hari igisirikare cya RPA nyuma yo gufata ubutegetsi, hajemo nyuma FAR ndetse igisirikare gihindurirwa izina kiba RDF, icyo gisirikare kivanze kirimo Abanyarwanda bose, ari abashakaga gufata ubutegetsi ndetse n’abari bafite inshingano yo kurinda igihugu (FAR), iyo shusho y’igisirikare kivanze kiri mu bumwe gihagaze gute?

Hari icyo ntasobanukirwa neza, iyo uvuze ngo kivanze, njyewe nza mu gisirikare, reka mvuge icya RPA kuko ariyo nari ndimo, ntabwo cyari igisirikare cy’ubwoko, cyari igisirikare kirimo amoko y’Abanyarwanda yose.

Umunyamakuru: Navugaga FAR na RPA ntabwo navugaga ubwoko

Icyari kigamijwe n’ubundi kijyanye n’ibyo byo kwibohora, icyambere; igisirikare cy’Abanyarwanda kigomba kuba kigizwe n’Abanyarwanda bose, icya kabiri ariko [kijyanye] n’ibyo twakwita ‘Post conflict management’[kwiyubaka nyuma y’intambara]; nubwo twarwanye ariko ntibivuze ko tutabana ariko umuntu ahereye aho, umuntu yavuga ko hashyizweho umusingi ukomeye niba abarwanaga bashobora kubana abandi Banyarwanda by’ukuri byumvikane ko bikwiye kuba byoroshye kurusha.

Igisirikare ku isi yose kigira uko kibaho, kigira uko kiyoborwa, kigira amategeko akigenga kikagira uko gikora ariko umwihariko wa RDF gifite umurongo gishingiraho ariwo wo gushimangira ubumwe n’imibare y’Abanyarwanda kandi mbona tumaze kubigeraho, uretse n’abahoze bari muri FAR hari benshi bari muri RDF bavuye yindi mitwe nk’abacengezi n’izo za FDLR kandi turabanye, tubanye nk’Abanyarwanda kandi tubanye neza.

Umunyamakuru: Gen. Patrick; ndagira ngo uduhe ishusho ngari nyuma yo gutangiza urugamba rwo kwibohora, intego yabahagurukije ushyize nko ku manota 10, uyu munsi wayiha amanota angahe?

Urakoze cyane, reka mbanze nguhe ibitekerezo byanjye mbere y’uko ngera ku manota cyangwa aho tugeze. Nigeze mvuga ko twisanga mu bihe bidasanzwe kubera ko twagize Jenoside mu 1994, noneho ibyakurikiye Jenoside, mu by’ukuri nta kintu twishingikirizaho cyadufasha, ibyabaye ku Bayahudi, bo bahise bimukira iwabo muri Isiraheli ariko twebwe twagumye hamwe, abishe n’abiciwe, rero ibihe byakurikiye Jenoside navuga ko ari bimwe mu byadukomereye, ariko nanone ibyinshi byarakozwe kandi kubera ko nta handi twari dufite icyitegererezo [uko twakwivana mu bibazo] byabaye ngombwa ko twishakamo ibisubizo kandi ibyo byadufashije kubona umutekano dufite uyu munsi!

Kuki ibi mbivuga, twabonye ibihugu byinshi byanyuze muri iyi nzira yo kwibohora ariko ntibyigeze bigira ibibazo nk’ibi bya Jenoside nubwo mvuze ibi, ku bijyanye n’umutekano nshatse nakubwira ko byibuze dufite amanota 8/10 ariko nk’uko nabivuze; biragoye kuvuga iterambere, ubukungu, uburezi n’ibindi hatari umutekano.

Aho turi; ndatekereza usubije amaso inyuma tumaze kugera ku bintu bishimishije, mu buryo bwo kubona umutekano urambye, iterambere, abaturage barenga miliyoni bavuye mu bukene, ibyinshi byarakozwe ariko ibindi nabyo bikeneye gukorwa.

Urabona ukeneye kubona ko nyuma ya Jenoside, urwego rwari ruriho ni RPA, ibintu byose byari byarasenyutse, RPA niyo yari yubatswe.

Umugaba mukuru w’Ingabo z’u Rwanda, Gen Patrick Nyamvumba mu kiganiro kirambuye n’ikinyamakuru Izuba Rirashe (Ifoto/J. Mbanda)

Umunyamakuru: ndagira ngo utubwire ku bunararibonye bwanyu, kuba mu igisirikare cyarwanye n’umwanzi ku rugamba ariko kandi mukisanga muri no mu bikorwa by’ubutabazi, ibintu bisa nkaho biba bigoye, ibi bihe mwaciyemo byafashije gute mukubaka igisirikare cy’uyu munsi?

Icyo gihe ndibuka ko ingabo za RPA arizo zatangaga uburyo bw’itumanaho bwafashaga Abaminisitiri hakoreshejwe itumanaho rya gisirikare, urumva ukuntu byari bibi, nitwe twari dufite byibuze ubushobozi buciriritse nk’aba Engineers, ariko icy’igenzi twari dufite ubuyobozi. Ni nk’aho [ibintu byose] byari ku mutwe w’igisirikare kugira ngo twerekane ko dushoboye, nababwiye ibijyanye n’ubuyobozi mbere, uruhare runini rwagizwe n’ubuyobozi mu izina rya Perezida wa Repubulika kuko ni nawe wari umuyobozi w’urwego rukuru rw’igisirikare (military High Command), uko kwiyumvamo inshingano nk’igisirikare.

Umunyamakuru: hari ibibazo byakurikiye Jenoside, ikibazo cya Kongo, u Rwanda rwagiye muri Kongo mu bihe bitandukanye, inshuro ebyiri mu buryo buzwi, iyo urebye nk’umugaba mukuru w’ingabo za RDF, nk’umuntu warwanye izi ntambara zose, hari ubwo usubiza amaso inyuma ukavuga ngo nabohoye igihugu cyanjye, nubwo hari ibyabaye muri Kongo, Uganda, hari ubwo wishimira ko mwageze kubyo mwarwaniraga cyane cyane ibyo byatumye mwisanga mu ntambara n’ibihugu by’abaturanyi?

Reka mvuge ibi bintu, Yaba [intambara] Kongo 1 na Kongo 2 ntacyo twicuza kubyo twakoze, nta mahitamo menshi twari dufite icyo gihe, ndatekereza ko tugeze aha uyu munsi kuko icyemezo cyafashwe, niba mwibuka mu 1995-1996 ubwo intambara ya mbere ya Kongo yabaga, twari dufite Abanyarwanda basaga miliyoni ebyiri bari mu buhungiro muri Kongo, twari dufite abandi basaga miliyoni bari muri Tanzania abandi nabo baravanywe mu byabo n’intambara.

Mu buryo bw’umutekano, abari muri Kongo, ntabwo zari impunzi gusa harimo abahoze ari abasirikare ba Leta n’Interahamwe baba muri izo nkambi z’impunzi.
Kandi bashyigikiwe n’umuryango mpuzamahanga batangira gukora ibikorwa by’ubucengezi mu Rwanda.

Hari ibintu byagombaga gukorwa; icya mbere bagombaga gutandukanywa n’izo mpunzi kugira ngo impunzi nazo zidahinduka abagizi ba nabi bagakoreshwa mu nyungu za politiki.
Nta buryo ibi byashoboraga kugerwaho hatabanje gusenywa ibyabafashaga gukora ibyo bikorwa.

Umunyamakuru: Uravuga ko impunzi zatahutse ariko FDLR iracyahari?

Ikibazo gikomeye kuri FDLR uyu munsi, ni ingengabitekerezo ya Jenoside, kuba bagitekereza ko bashobora kuza bakica abantu kubera ko batamazeho abantu mu myaka 20 ishize, icyo nicyo kibatandukanya n’indi mitwe y’inyeshyamba ushobora gutekereza, ubushobozi bwo kubigeraho mu buryo bwa gisirikare iyo babugira bagombaga kuba bari hano, kuri njye izo nizo mpungenge mfite ariko ikibazo wagombye kuba wibaza, ni kuki batashoboye gukandagira kuri ubu butaka mu myaka 20 ishize?

Umunyamakuru: Ariko bagera hano?

Bakora udutero-shuma ariko bagahita birukanwa! Ibikorwa by’iterabwoba bakora, batera gerenade ibyo ntibikenera abantu benshi ariko [ibyo] kugira ingabo zo guhangana na RDF… ikibazo ni uko hari ababashyigikiye.

Umunyamakuru: Ibyo se mu biha uburemere bungana gute?

Ngira ngo mwumvise amagambo y’ababashyigikiye hano mu karere, hari abigize abavugizi babo (ba FDLR); ibyo kandi bigatuma bashira amanga, ariko haba hari abashaka kubarinda, kubagira abere, bakabavugira ndatekereza ko bitazahindura byinshi kuko baguma kuba ari FDLR, bagiye bahindagura amazina mbere kandi bazanakomeza guhindagura amazina ariko ibyo ntibizatuma batitwa Abajenosideri kandi ibyo ntibizahindura ko tuzakomeza kubarwanya tutitaye ku babashyigikiye.

Umunyamakuru: Sena iherutse kwerekana ubushakashatsi, muri urwego rwa mbere mu gihugu rwizewe n’abaturage; ariko muri ku mwanya wa kabiri nyuma ya Perezida Kagame, ubyumva ute Gen. Patrick kuyobora ingabo zimeze gutyo?

Eeeeeeeh…umuntu yavuga ko aribyo Abanyarwanda badutezeho, sinumva ikindi twaba cyo atari uguha Abanyarwanda icyizere, bitabaye ibyo sinzi ikindi twaba dukora. Mu by’ukuri ni igihango twagiranye n’abanyarwanda n’abandi batari Abanyarwanda aho tujya gukorera.

Gusa dufite inshingano yo kudatezuka kubyo dukora ahubwo tukarushaho gukora neza, nubwo ari uko babyumva sinumva ikindi twakagombye kuba dukora!

Umunyamakuru: Abandi barabikora ariko, Twumva muri Kongo abasirikare bambura abaturage…

Come on! Ntabwo twaba nk’abandi, ntabwo twaba nk’Abanyekongo, nibyo navugaga ngo hari igihango twagiranye n’Abanyarwanda, hari iby’ibanze nk’ingabo z’u Rwanda tugomba kuba twujuje!

Twarwaniye iki? Nta kindi ni icyo. Dukoze ibitandukanye n’ibyo ntaho twaba dutandukaniye n’abandi twarwanyaga; ariko uko kwiyumvamo izo nshingano bifite aho bikomoka. Natangiye mbabwira ko twagize ubuyobozi, twabuze abantu mu gihe cyo kwibohora, mu ntambara, ibyo byose hari ukuntu numva bifasha imitekerereze yacu no kugira ubwo bwitange ariko buri muntu agira ikimuranga.

Umunyamakuru: Hari abatangiranye namwe ubu mutakiri kumwe, ubu mutagisangiye intego, nshaka naguha urugero rwa ba Gen. Kayumba Nyamwasa n’abandi, abo mwatangiranye urugamba ariko ntimukiri hamwe, mwumva mwaragambaniwe na bamwe muri mwe?

Ahubwo se ni twebwe gusa bahemukiye, bahemukiye Abanyarwanda ndetse nabo barihemukira ariko muri sosiyete ibyo ntibitangaje.

Abanyarwanda barenga miliyoni 11 ntihashobora kuburamo abantu nk’aba kandi na mbere babayeho kandi ndakeka ko bazahoraho ariko ni bacye cyane ugereranyije n’abandi basigaye.

Icyangombwa ni uko twebwe tuguma ku ntego. Ese ibyaduhagurikije nibyo dukora? Nidukomeza muri uwo murongo abandi ntacyo… hari abandi benshi baza ngo dufatanye ariko kandi ahari bafite izindi nyungu zabo, ibyo bibaho ariko birababaje kuba hari bamwe muri twe bashobora kugira ubuhemu bugeze hariya!

Umunyamakuru: Ese uricuza ko byabaye?

Birashoboka ko byaba byiza ko byabayeho kugira ngo dusobanukirwe neza abo turibo! Ntabwo bishimishije cyane ariko ndatekereza ko kuba byarabaye ariko tugakomeza kuba abo turibo bivuga byinshi! Ni nk’aho waba uri ku rugendo muri mu modoka, hanyuma umwe agasimbuka akayivamo; ntibivuga ko iyo modoka ihagarara kandi ntabwo twakomeje gusa ahubwo twakomeje neza, navugaga ko tudakwiye gutakaza intego, ariko nibo bakomeretse kurenza uko badukomerekeje.

Umunyamakuru: Urumva mwarubatse igisirikare kidashingiye ku butegetsi buriho, twagiye tubona igisirikare gishyigikiye ubutegetsi bwamara kuvaho; igisirikare nacyo kigahinduka, mwebwe iyo ntambwe mwarayirenze, mugeze he?

Yego… ntabwo tureba RDF mu myaka 5, 10. Turareba RDF mu myaka ibarirwa mu ijana ubwo tutazaba tuyiyobora, kandi Abanyarwanda bazahora bakeneye umutekano kandi ndatekereza ko urufatiro rwamaze kubakwa kandi rurakomeye nta kindi mbona gitandukanye n’ibyo.

Gen. Patrick Nyamvumba, Umugaba mukuru w'Ingabo z'u Rwanda (Ifoto/J. Mbanda/Izuba Rirashe)

Umunyamakuru: reka tuvuge nko mu myaka 10 iri imbere, RPF itakiri ku butegetsi; RDF izakomeza kuba iriho?

Ufite ubu se….

Umunyamakuru: urugero muri Uganda hari Leta iyobowe na UPC kandi ifite igisirikare cyayo, n’indi ije izana n’igisirikare cyayo…

Ndibwira ko aho twamaze kuharenga…

Umunyamakuru: Urumva ushobora kuba umugaba mukuru w’ingabo nko k’ubutegetsi bwa Twagiramungu?

Urabona Twagiramungu azaba Perezida…?

Umunyamakuru: Rwari urugero gusa…

Urabona yatorwa koko mbere y’uko mukorera? Hahahahhaha….

Umunyamakuru: Ariko tekereza atsinze, muri 2003 yariyamamaje ahangana na Perezida Kagame, gusa tekereza habayeho undi muntu utsinze amatora atavuye muri RPF, wamwumvira?

Icyo ugomba kuba ubaza, ese Abanyarwanda bakeneye iki? RDF iva mu Banyarwanda, turi Abanyarwanda, ikibazo ntigikwiye kuba kireba umuntu umwe, ahubwo ukwiye kwibaza icyo Abanyarwanda bakeneye.

RDF ntishobora gukora ibinyuranye n’ibyo Abanyarwanda bakeneye, ndatekereza ni uko Abanyarwanda bakwiye kuba babibona.

Umunyamakuru: Reba ikibazo cyo muri Misiri, abantu babanje kwanga umuyobozi, bashyiraho uwo bashaka nawe nyuma bamuvanaho, umuyobozi w’igisirikare ubu niwe Perezida, urabona iyi ntero ariyo Afurika ikwiye kwikiriza?

Birashoboka ko ibikorwa hariya bitashoboka hano, ariko nabivuze ingabo zifitiwe icyizere zigomba kuba zireba inyungu z’igihugu mbere.

Ntabwo dushobora gukora ibitandukanye n’inyungu z’abaturage, kandi iyo mvuga ko hari urufatiro, ndavuga imiyoborere, imibereho y’Abanyarwanda n’igihugu muri rusange… ikindi twebwe bariho ubu tugomba kumenya ko dufite aho tugarukira ariko igihugu cyo kizakomeza kubaho.

Umunyamakuru: Namwe ubwanyu mwavuze ko mufite amahirwe ko mufite umuyobozi mwiza, Perezida Kagame. Abantu baravuga ngo igihugu gikomeye kubera Perezida Kagame, igisirikare gikomeye kubera Perezida Kagame, Ese iki gisirikare kizaba gikomeye no mu gihe Perezida Kagame azaba atakiri ku ubutegetsi?

Reka nanjye nkubaze, wowe ukibona ute? Nibyo hari uruhare rw’ubuyobozi kandi ruzakomeza kubaho, ariko iyo uvuga ngo twibona gute? Igisirikare cyose ku Isi usibye no kugira ubuyobozi, kigomba kuba gikora nk’igisonga cyiza, ubwo busonga rero akenshi na kenshi bushingiye kuba mwese mwerekeza mu cyerekezo kimwe.

Ariko ku ngabo by’umwihariko nibyo bizana ubumwe, kubera mwizera umuyobozi wanyu ariko kandi mukanakorera abaturage, ikindi tudashoboye kugira uwo murage, ubwo bivuga ko twaba twananiwe inshingano zacu.

Ibyo dukora uyu munsi, ntitubikora nk’aho uyu munsi urangira, u Rwanda ruzahoraho; turabikora tureba imyaka myinshi

Umunyamakuru: Ariko ntabwo aribyo birimo kuba muri Libya, reba Colonel Kadhafi…

Ariko wambajije ibyo u Rwanda ukareka ibya Libya

Umunyamakuru: Ariko u Rwanda ntabwo ruri mu kirwa..

Igifite agaciro ahubwo ni byiza ko dukuramo amasomo

Umunyamakuru: nibyo tubabaza, iyo urebye igisirikare cya Libya uyu munsi, aho Kadafi aviriyeho ubu bari mu macakubiri! Ese hari amasomo dukuramo?

Arahari!

Umunyamakuru: Ikibazo cy’iterabwoba mu karere, nk’igisirikare mwiteguye gute?

Soma igice gisigaye cy’iki kiganiro ku rubuga rwaIzuba Rirashe, kanda hano.


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