Hashize igihe kirenga ukwezi hatangajwe agahenge mu ntambara ibera mu Burasirazuba bwa RDC, ariko inshuro nyinshi M23 yumvikana itaka ko ingabo za FARDC zayigabyeho ibitero, igasubiza yitabara inarinda abaturage batuye mu bice yigaruriye.

Umunyamakuru Marc Hoogsteyns umaze igihe akurikirana ibibazo by’umutekano muke muri RDC ubwo yari mu kiganiro The Long Form cya Sanny Ntayombya, yatangaje ko ubutegetsi bwa Perezida Tshisekedi nta mbaraga bugifite ndetse butagishoboye kuyobora Kivu zombi, iy’Amajyepfo cyangwa iy’Amajyaruguru, abishingiye ku kuba ku rugamba aho ingabo z’impande zombi zihuriye biba bizwi ko iza Leta zitsindwa zigahunga.

Yahamije ko muri iyi Ntambara M23 idateze kurekura uduce yafashe kuko bazi neza ko mu gihe bahatakaza byaba birangiye burundu, bazabaho batagira igihugu.

Dore iby’ingenzi byaranze ikiganiro.

Mu minsi ishize umuntu yavuze muri RDC yambuka umupaka arasa inzu, ariko ntihagira ukomereka. Byavuzwe ko ari umurwanyi wa Wazalendo wari wanyoye urumogi. Nawe ni ko ubizi?

Marc Hoogsteyns: Birashoboka cyane, kuko n’ubu ikibazo kiracyari ukwibaza ngo uwarashe yari uwo ku ruhe ruhande? Ibyo kandi ntituzigera tubimenya kuko ashobora kubikora gusa kuko yanyweye urumogi rwinshi, yasinze cyangwa se yataye umutwe, biranashoboka kandi ko haba hari uwamwishyuye kugira ngo aze arase mu Rwanda.

Gusa iki si cyo cy’ingenzi ahubwo igikomeye wamenya ni uko ibihumbi by’intwaro byakwirakwijwe mu basivili, n’abandi bafite imyitozo y’ibanze binyuze muri gahunda yo guha intwaro umutwe wa Wazalendo ngo barwanye M23 n’ibyo bita Abanyarwanda kuko ni ko bababwira.

Babaha imyitozo mike kugira ngo bashobore kurwana rero kuri njye ni ikimenyetso cy’uko hakiri ibibazo byinshi.

Kuki umuntu yakohereza undi kuza kurasa mu Rwanda?

Ni ibintu byoroshye cyane, ugeze muri Goma ufite 5000$ mu mufuka uwo ari we wese ashobora gushuka abarwanyi ba Wazalendo bamaze gusinda ngo bajye ku mupaka batangire kurasa ukamusezeranya ko umuha 1000$, 2000$ cyangwa 3000$ ngo ashotore ingabo z’u Rwanda kugira ngo zize kumusubiza bibyare ikibazo gikomeye, icyo gihe ikibazo cyakomera mu buryo bwihuse.

Urakeka ko ari FARDC ibiri inyuma?

Nko mu myaka ibiri ishize abarwanyi ba FDLR barashe n’imbunda ziremereye mu Rwanda, mu Kinigi barasa ahantu hari isoko, amashusho yarafashwe, hari ahantu hahurira abantu benshi kuko ni rwagati muri Kinigi, ibindi bisasu byaguye ahantu impande y’umurima hanze ya Kinigi. Ibyo byari ubushotoranyi.

Kuki FDLR yabikoze? Ni uko mu gihe ari yo Guverinoma ya Congo yihutira kuvuga ngo si twe. Bashaka guteza umutekano muke ariko bakanga kwirengera ingaruka zabyo.

Ubuyobozi bwa RDC busa n’ubuhagaze ku kadodo kuko Goma yamaze kugotwa, umujyi wabaye indiri y’imitwe yitwaje intwaro, abantu nta cyizere cy’umutekano cyangwa icyo kuramuka bafite kandi aba barwanyi benshi bafite intwaro.

Uyu mujyi usigaye uteye ubwoba, hasigaye haba ubujura bwitwaje intwaro, ubwicanyi n’urugomo. Mvugana n’abantu b’i Goma hafi buri munsi, yewe n’iyo ugeze ku Gisenyi uhura n’abantu benshi baba i Goma n’Abanyarwanda bajya i Goma buri munsi bazakubwira inkuru nk’iyi.

Ubu ibintu birakaze i Goma ku buryo ushobora kubona habaye ibintu bibi cyane igihe icyo ari cyo cyose.

Ibi birampangayikishije cyane kuko iyo usesenguye neza usanga ubutegetsi bwa Kinshasa nta bushobozi na buke bugifite bwo gutegeka Kivu zombi, ndetse Goma yaratangatanzwe ku buryo bisa n’aho bwamaze gutsindwa intambara. Tshisekedi mu bihe byashize yagerageje kwiyambaza abamufasha bavuye hanze, nk’Abanyafurika y’Epfo, abanya-Kenya, abacanshuro ariko bose barananiwe.

Nta muntu ugishaka kumufasha kuko ni urugamba rumeze nko kuba hagati y’urupfu n’umupfumu. Intambara irushaho gukara kandi urugamba bakarutsindwa. Bahora bagaba ibitero kuko bohereza Wazalendo na FDLR n’ingabo z’u Burundi imbere bakaraswa ku bwinshi na M23.

Nyamara iyo ubajije abayoboye urugamba muri M23 barakubwira bati twe ntitunezezwa no kurasa aba bantu kuko biba byoroshye. Baza ari amatsinda batugabyeho igitero, bikarangira tubarashe ariko ntituba tubyishimiye, nyamara barakomeza bakaza. Ntabwo ari FARDC irwana.

Ni iki gisunikira aba barwanyi gukomeza kurwana babona benewabo bashira?

Banza urebe ingabo z’u Burundi hamwe n’imbonerakure boherejwe ku rugamba muri RDC, ariko 300 muri bo barafunzwe kubera ko banze gusubirayo kuko barabizi. Hari kandi n’abarwanyi ba Wazalendo na FDLR bajya banga kujya ku rugamba bakabasezeranya ibihembo bakabona kugenda.

Tshisekedi na FARDC ntibajya bita ku buzima bw’abasirikare, umutekano wabo, kuri bo ni nk’umukino kuko ntibitaye ku mibereho myiza y’abatuye mu Burasirazuba bwa RDC, ndetse n’abanyapolitike benshi bo muri RDC yaba Kabila, Tshisekedi, Bemba bose batekereza kuri Katanga.

Baravuga bati muri Katanga mpafite inzuri, ibirombe by’amabuye y’agaciro, mpafite imitungo iyi n’iyi. Nka Kabila yavuga ati i Masisi mpafite urwuri, muri Goma mpafite inzu nziza, ahandi mpafite inyungu mu birombe bya coltan; ni ibyo bitekerereza gusa, bashyira imbere amafaranga.

Tshisekedi ntiyigeze yiga, ahubwo akikijwe n’abantu bamubwira icyo agomba gukora n’icyo kureka, ubwe ntiyiyizera kandi ntabwo aba ashaka gutakarizwa icyizere kuko azi neza ko igihe Goma yaba ifashwe ubutegetsi bwe bushobora guhita bugera ku iherezo kuko ntazaba agifite uburyo yasobanura ibyo akora i Kinshasa.

Tshisekedi afite abamurwanya benshi i Kinshasa ndetse anabafite mu ishyaka rye imbere rero arasumbirijwe haba muri politike ariko no mu bya gisirikare ntiyorohewe. Ibye byenda kurangira kandi buriya iyo urebye uriya muntu wagiye ku mupaka akarasa ni urugero rw’uko iyo abantu nka Tshisekedi batangiye kubona bagiye kubura byose batangira gushotora ku buryo bateza umutekano muke ku mipaka minini y’ibindi bihugu kugira ngo ikibazo gihinduke icy’akarere.

Iyo urebye kandi usanga bagomba kwishingikiriza kuri FDLR kugira ngo iki kibazo kijye ku rwego rw’akarere kuko ubu u Rwanda ruhora ruvuga ibyo kwambura intwaro FDLR no kuyirandura ariko barabizi ko bitazapfa gushoboka kuko bitoroshye gutandukanya FDLR na FARDC kuko bose bambara impuzankano zimwe ariko ubwo batangiye guta muri yombi abayobozi n’abasirikare bakuru, hashobora kuba hari ikiri gututumba. Mu rwego rwo kwirinda, FDLR na yo igomba gukora ku buryo ikaza intambara ikagera kure ku buryo umuryango mpuzamahanga ari wo ubijyamo ukabwira buri wese ngo ahagarike ibikorwa bye.

Ubu hari ibiganiro bya Luanda na Nairobi, M23 yagiye muri Angola kuvugana n’umuhuza ariko nta muntu wizeye ko hazavamo umusaruro mwiza muri ibyo biganiro.

Mu busesenguzi bwawe, ubona M23 izagera aho igafata Goma?

Bashobora kubikora kuko Tshisekedi natemera inzira y’ibiganiro aho ni ho bizerekeza kuko ibintu bidatanga umusaruro ntibizakomeza, nta n’umuntu ubyishimiye.

Biha Tshisekedi umwanya wo gusuganya ingabo akongera akagaba ibitero, kongera intwaro mu birindiro by’ingabo ze kuko ubu ni byo barimo gukora mu bice bya Kanyabayonga, muri Sake, ku buryo bishoboka cyane ko hagiye kongera kuba imirwano ikaze kandi buri wese azi ikizavamo, n’ubundi M23 izabasubiza inyuma kuko irabizi ko biri gutegurwa rero igomba kuba yarize amayeri yo guhangana na byo no kubasubiza inyuma.

Sinzi niba warakurikiye ariko Tshisekedi aherutse kwakira itsinda ryavuye mu Burayi rigizwe n’abahezanguni b’Abahutu barimo Jean Luck Habyarimana (umuhungu wa Perezida Habyarimana) baje kuganiriza ubutegetsi bwa Kinshasa ngo bugirire impuhwe abantu babiri bakomeye muri FDLR bafungiyeyo kuko bari bafite ubwoba ko bazoherezwa mu Rwanda kuko rwakomeje kuvuga ko uyu mutwe ugomba kurimburwa.

Yaje kuganiriza abarwanyi ba FDLR ngo bashyire umutima mu nda no kuganiriza abayobozi ba RDC. Namenye ko yavugishije umuvandimwe wa Tshisekedi kandi ni umwe mu bavuga rikijyana aho, yavuganye n’umwe muri bagenzi banjye ukorera i Kinshasa ndetse yavuganye na Patrick Muyaya bavugana ku mafaranga agenda ahererekanywa mu bahezanguni b’Abahutu i Burayi.

Ayo mafaranga akomoka he? Igice kinini aturuka muri RDC agahabwa amatsinda nka Jambo News kugira ngo baharabike u Rwanda ku bibera muri Congo, ni aho amafaranga aturuka. None ubwo wavuga ute amahoro, kwambura intwaro FDLR, ukabwira u Rwanda ko ufite ubushake bwo kwambura intwaro FDLR mu gihe abarwanyi bayo wabinjije mu gisirikare cyawe, ugakomeza kohereza amafaranga n’ubufasha ku ruhande rw’abanyapolitike bayo mu Burayi?

Umuhungu wa Habyarimana Juvenal yaba asigaye ari we uyoboye FDLR?

Ntabwo mbizi, gusa ibyo nzi neza ni uko abantu bo mu muryango wa Habyarimana bagira uruhare rukomeye mu mibereho y’uyu mutwe ariko mu buryo bw’ibanga. Yewe na Agathe Habyarimana aracyakorana na yo, Jean Luck Habyarimana na we aracyakora hari n’abandi bafitanye isano n’abajenosideri, hakabamo n’abandi badafite aho bahuriye n’aba bajenosideri ariko na bo b’abahezanguni. Ibikorwa byabo byongeye kugira ingufu kuva intambara yo mu Burasirazuba bwa RDC yongeye kubura.

Hagiye ingabo nyinshi muri RDC. Buri ruhande ruhagaze rute?

Uretse FDLR n’ingabo z’u Burundi bari mu ngabo zijya ku rugamba, ingabo za Afurika y’Epfo, iza SADC n’abacanshuro ntibajya mu mirwano nyirizina, ahubwo baba barimo abantu batanga imyitozo, bagatanga ubujyanama mu byo kurasa ariko ntibajya mu ntambara mu buryo bweruye.

Ingabo za SADC zo ntizigeze zijya ku rugamba kuko zahise zibibona kare ko iyo zibeshya bari gusubira muri Afurika y’Epfo ari imirambo. Babanje kuburirwa ariko hari n’igitutu cy’abatavuga rumwe n’ubutegetsi muri Afurika y’Epfo barwanyije icyemezo cya guverinoma cyo kohereza izo ngabo rero bose ntibabyumvikanagaho muri Afurika y’Epfo.

Yaba Leta ya Afurika y’epfo yarigengesereye na bo ntibashaka kwishora mu muriro ndetse ubu bigenda bisa n’aho batazagumayo kuko inyungu bahakura numvise ngo iri kugabanyuka. Ntabwo bongererwa ubushobozi nubwo hari bike biheruka gukorwa ariko nta kibasunikira kwinjira mu ntambara kandi barabizi ko kwinjira mu mirwano bashobora kuhasiga amagara.

M23 yarababwiye ngo uko byagendekeye Abarundi, nk’uko nkunda kubivuga hari abasirikare benshi b’u Burundi biciwe i Masisi, bahise batinya n’ubu ntiwapfa kubona abasirikare benshi b’u Burundi imbere ku rugamba. Na bo basigaye bashaka kujya inyuma, rero abasigaye bagomba kurwana ni ingabo za FARDC, FDLR na Wazalendo.

Wumvise ko na M23 ivuga ko abacanshuro baba bari gutanga imyitozo ariko bamwe muri bo bakajya no ku rugamba kandi ibyo ntibyemewe mu mategeko mpuzamahanga. Bakomeza gutoza no kuyobora ku rugamba FARDC.

Ndatekereza ko byaba ari bibi cyane kuri aba bacanshuro kujya mu ntambara mu buryo bweruye kuko bashobora kuhagwa kandi byabaca intege. Ikindi numvise ni uko hari ibibazo mu kubishyura, abampa amakuru baba i Goma barabimbwira ndetse n’abari gukorana na bo barabivuga ko iyo habayeho gutinda kubahemba nk’iminsi ibiri cyangwa itatu batangira kwivumbura, kuko bagiye hariya gukorera amafaranga ntabwo bagiye kuhapfira.

Ubu aho bihagaze ni uko Goma yaragoswe, M23 na yo yongeye kwisuganya mu duce yigaruriye ariko hagiye habaho udutero kuko ibihe by’agahenge ntibyubahirijwe inshuro nyinshi igihe Wazalendo yagabaga ibitero ariko byagombaga guhagarara.

Kuba hari aho FARDC yubahirije agahenge bigaragaza ko abantu bari kumwe na Tshisekedi mu butegetsi bari kugerageza kumwumvisha ko agomba gutuza. Nihongera kubaho ibitero bikaze, M23 ikirwanaho bishobora gushyira Goma mu kaga.

Igihe Goma yaba ibayemo imirwano ingabo byazisaba iminsi iri hagati y’ibiri n’itatu zikaba ziyigaruriye kuko ntabwo bikomeye. Igihe haba imirwano M23 ikagera i Goma, icya mbere kizabaho ni uko inyeshyamba zo zizaba zirwana no guhunga, FARDC izahita ihunga, kuko M23 ni abahanga basigamo inzira ifasha abandi guhunga. FDLR na Wazalendo zizahunga ku buryo umujyi uzaba usigaye nta barwanyi barimo.

M23 yafata Kinshasa?

Gushaka gufata Kinshasa birakomeye, bisaba kuba ufite uburyo bwo koroshya ingendo, uba ukeneye ubufasha bw’amahanga, ubwo baba bakeneye ubufasha bw’u Rwanda na Uganda kandi ntibyashoboka.

Iyo bavuga gufata Kinshasa ni amagambo yo gushyushya urugamba no gushaka gukanga ubutegetsi bwa Kinshasa kuko uko M23 ivuga ni kimwe n’uko abanyapolitike b’i Kinshasa bavuga kugira ngo babashyushye mu mutwe kuko no gufata Kisangani cyangwa Beni ntibyaba byoroshye uko mbitekereza.

Gufata Goma byo birashoboka, kandi bamaze kuyifata ntihaboneke igisubizo kirambye na Bukavu baba bagomba kuyifata.

Urakeka ko cyaba ari igisubizo cyiza mu bya politiki?

Niba uri gushaka kugirana ibiganiro bigamije amahoro n’umuntu kuva mu myaka ibiri ishize, M23 yaravugaga ngo dukeneye ibiganiro kuva intambara itangiye, Guverinoma ya RDC ikabyanga. Bakomeza kubyanga kandi bagatsindwa urugamba, amaherezo ni uko M23 izagera aho igafata icyemezo. Uko bazabigenza ni gahunda yabo.

Ibiganiro bya Nairobi bigeze he? Ese abo mu Burengerazuba tubona batangiye kuvuga kuri iyi ntambara byifashe bite?

Mu minsi yashize muri iyi ntambara, M23 n’u Rwanda bafatwaga nk’aho ari bo kibazo ariko ubu abantu batangiye kubona ko atari ko bimeze, abantu batangiye kubona ko impamvu iyi ntambara idahagarara, cyangwa itazanashyirwaho iherezo, ari uko Kinshasa yahakanye inzira y’ibiganiro.

M23 ibyayo biroroshye, bashaka amahoro, bashaka ko aba bahezanguni b’Abahutu bava aho bagasubira mu Rwanda, hanyuma bagacyura impunzi zabo kandi bakaba bizeye ko bazaba batekanye. Urebye icyo ni cyo barwanira.

Abanyamerika mu mwaka ushize iyo wabavugishaga wabonaga ko batumva ibibera hariya kuko kuri bo byari ibintu byoroshye. Baravugaga ngo mu 2013 twashyize igitutu ku Rwanda ngo ruhagarike inkunga ruha M23, ihita ihungira muri Uganda, abandi bajya mu Rwanda bashyirwa mu nkambi birarangira. Ibyo ni byo batekerezaga, ntibigeze babirenga.

M23 n’umuryango mugari w’Abagogwe bamaze gufata icyemezo ndetse bazi neza ko baramutse basubiye inyuma bagakurikiza ibyo Abanyamerika bashaka bizaba birangiye burundu. Muri aka karere, muri Kivu y’Amajyaruguru aho bafashe ntabwo bazavamo kuko mu 1990 hari Abatutsi b’Abanyecongo bari bahatuye barenga ibihumbi 200.

Bakomoka ku bwoko bw’Abagogwe n’Abaha bari batuye aho kandi ni ho bahoze. Mu 1995 haje impunzi nyinshi zivuye mu Rwanda na bo biyongera kuri abo. Muri abo bantu ibihumbi 200, ubu hasigaye abatarenga ibihumbi 15. Abandi baro mu nkambi mu Rwanda, Uganda cyangwa se bajyanywe n’imiryango mpuzamahanga mu bindi bihugu bagamije gukemura ikibazo binyuze mu kuhamara abantu.

Ibi ni impamo, ibihumbi by’abantu bamwe boherejwe muri Australia, Amerika, Canada, mu Burayi hakoreshejwe amafaranga y’umuryango mpuzamahanga ariko iyo ubibajije abantu ba OIM kubera ko byakozwe mu myaka 10 ishize n’ubu bigikomeje, baravuga ngo icyo ni cyo gisubizo cyonyine cyashoboka cyo gukemura ikibazo.

Aya ni yo mahirwe ya nyuma M23 ifite yo kugarura imiryango yabo ku butaka bwabo, cyangwa se bakabaho batagira iwabo, batagira igihugu cyangwa na none bagahatirwa kuba Abanyarwanda, Abagande, Abanyamerika cyangwa ikindi gihugu ariko ikigaragara muri iki gihe ni uko hari ubufatanye hagati y’abantu bagiye kuba mu bindi bihugu, bose bashyigikiye M23. Barayoherereza amafaranga, bohereza ibintu bitandukanye.

Haramutse hanabayeho ibiganiro bigamije amahoro, abantu bose bazi neza ko Guverinoma ya Congo itazigera ibyubahiriza. Nibibaho rero M23 izakomeza gusaba ko yirindira umutekano w’ibice batuyemo kandi izaba ari ingingo ikomeye. Birakomeye cyane.

Haba hari amahirwe y’uko impande zose zizagera ku masezerano y’amahoro azinyuze?

Mu myaka maze nkurikirana iki kibazo nabonye amasezerano y’amahoro menshi arangirira mu kirere. Igihe Loni yirukanaga Gen Makenga i Goma nari ndi yo, hari umugabo w’Umudage wari uyoboye ibikora bya Loni, twasangiye ibya mu gitondo muri Hotel i Goma ariko ntiyamenye, akajya avuga ngo tugiye kwirukana M23 kandi nari nahoze mvugana na M23 mu gitondo kuri telefone bavuga ko bagiye gusubira inyuma kuko ntacyo byaba bimaze kuraswa n’indege z’intambara za Afurika y’Epfo, ahubwo tuzaganira habeho amasezerano y’amahoro.

Uwo Mudade yaravuze ngo tugiye kubarwanya hanyuma twambure intwaro FDLR. Naramubwiye nti unyihanganire sinshaka kuguca mu ryo uvuga ariko ntabwo nemeranya nawe, ndamubwira nti ndabizi neza ko mutazambura FDLR intwaro, kuko icyo si ikibazo kuri Leta ya Congo, bazababwira ko bazaba babikemura.

Ayo masezerano yose yashyizweho ntiyigeze yubahirizwa. Kuki wumva ko M23 yakwizera andi masezerano mashya atazigera yubahirizwa n’ubuyobozi bwa RDC? Nta wabyizera ariko n’iyo babyizera bagomba gushyira imbere ibyifuzo byabo kandi bakabigumaho, kugira ngo babe bizeye ko mu gihe amasezerano atubahirijwe bashobora kugira icyo bakora.

Iyi ntambara n’ibibazo by’umutekano bivuze iki ku Rwanda?

Abanyarwanda bakeneye iterambere ry’igihugu cyabo, ntibashaka intambara, ntibakeneye gusahura amabuye y’agaciro muri RDC, bo ubona ko bakeneye gukora ubucuruzi busanzwe bunyura ku mipaka bagura ibikomoka ku buhinzi, bagura amabuye bakishyura imisoro.

Ariko kubera impamvu zitandukanye abantu bakomeza kubasiga icyasha. Gusa baba bari muri Congo cyangwa batariyo, bafite uburenganzira bwo kwirwanaho kandi bagakurikirana intambwe z’umwanzi bahanganye. Impamvu Abanyarwanda bahora basaba ibiganiro, barambiwe ibi bintu, bifuza ko birangira.

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